How long are we going to wait????

[bhatinda]

is it going to take another young Sikh boy to commit suicide to make us realize that our community is under attack, how many more girls are going to be converted, how many more children, aunts and elders are going to be attacked, how much more persecution can our people take before we realize that we must do something.........the TIME is now.....we must protect our people.......msg me if u feel the same way......there aint not better time than the present because you dont want to regret the past......lets help OUR people....WJKK WJKF.....i would like to point out to the administrator that im in no way inciting hatred towards any particular group....i am simply stating a SELF-DEFENSE motive and for that reason this thread should not be removed

[Ghost...]

^^
99999999999999999999% agree Bruv!

[5abikuri10]

u go do that

[shalin]

What minority community in India/Pakistan is NOT under attack? Seriously man, just think about that. If you want to talk about people getting converted, look at all the missionary work that is done throughout India/Pakistan. I think that's something to worry about more, than some random girls in the UK who, because they want to marry their boyfriends (who shouldn't be going out with anyone before marriage anyway), end up converting to a religion they don't truly follow, but only God knows.

There really is no point in getting all worked up about a few incidents. A lot of screwed up sh*t happens everyday in the subcontinent, and in communities around the world with people from the subcontinent. If you are referring to only Sikhs, understand that this website itself is a Punjabi music website, and also understand, that if you look at Punjabis as an ethnicity, the majority are actually Muslims, not Sikh Hindu or Christian. If you speak of the Punjabi community as a whole, representing people of all faiths, please explain what you mean. Trying to rivel people up online to feel as though they are all victims and need to fight back is pointless, really.

For one, a few people committing suicide is not persecution. That is the choice of the individual. Unless you are in a land in which people believe that suicide is their only options remaining, because they feel as though they have nothing to live for as they see their families being killed in front of their eyes, their homes being blown to bits by armies, and their people subjected to crimes against humanity, even then it is not justified, but there are underlying reasons.

Someone converting to another religion is not persecution. There are no knives put to the throats of the individuals at mass numbers. Last time I checked, Sikhism is still the majority religion amongst Indian Punjabis, however, when you count Punjabis as a whole, Islam is the majority, then Sikhism, then Hinduism. Don't start to believe that the entire Sikh community (or whichever you are referring to) is going to be wiped out, because it's not. I tell this to many other people as well.

As long as you are not existing in the reality in which people such as Palestinians, or Sudanese, or Afghanis, or Iraqis, or countless other groups of people around the world...in countries in which people are really killed everyday, in some places in vast numbers, you should not believe that there is some sort of need for action. And plus, you never know, those comments may be considered terroristic threats, so it would be best to not say such things. Then again, in the mind of the average human being these days, you must fit a certain profile to be considered a threat.

With this all said, what exactly is the reason behind your call for self-defense?

[bhatinda]

First of all you assume because I am talking about conversions by muslims of sikh girls in UK that i do not consider missionary conversions in the sub-continent a big deal.
Just because i am talking about what is happening in the UK which i can relate to more since i am living in Western country myself, i choose to talk about that and i feel
that is a bigger issue because the audience i am appealing to is primarily from the UK. Now you give a reason "girls wanting to marry thier boyfriends" as an explanation
for why they want to convert, so i'm guessing what the chief of police said about "groomed" conversions occurring in universities is NOT true. Sorry buddy but a sane person is more likely to believe the chief of police over you.

You make the point of a "few incidents", which is exactly the problem. First of all, even one conversion to me is a BIG DEAL that means that the Sikh community is doing
something wrong because thier children are not being well educated in their religion. Secondly, i doubt it is more than a few incidents because if it were only a few than
it wouldn't be that big of an issue that the police would have to get involved. Thirdly, forcing religion upon someone by physical means or by blackmailing is a CRIME so this things shouldn't be taken lightly, the problem with people is that they tend to ignore these things until it hits home and ends up happening to one of thier loved ones. You keep on referring to screwed up things happening in the sub-continent with the aim of belittling the situation in the UK, at no point in time have i said that any incident is bigger or smaller than any other incident, all i am saying is that if people tend to focus on stuff that is happening around them we will be more effective in solving problems because firstly, they are more likely to affect us and therefore, we will more actively participate in solving these problems and secondly, we are more likely to know the full story because it is happening around us. Yes i know that it is a Punjabi Music website and i would also like you to notice that i posted under "world affairs" which means that it is NOT ONLY for punjabi music, so that completely nulifies your argument there. You said i should make it clear whether i am talking about a particular religion, well i thought by me stating in the opening sentence that " a Sikh boy committed suicide" would be enough to let everyone know that i was talking about Sikh problems, but apparently not, so i apologize for that and i would like everyone to know that did not know so before, that I am talking ONLY about SIKHS that are facing these problems in the UK.

Again in your next paragraph you are trying to make this problem be out to be small, while i do agree that there are bigger problems in this world that does not mean that you forget about those problems that are hitting close to home and affecting YOUR people. If you cause someone so much pain and anguish that it causes them to commit suicide and then spread letters about it, obviously you have persecuted that individual to lead them to take that action and then by intimidating the rest of the community you are also threatening them with further persecution.

You are right someone converting someone to another religion is NOT persecution. But intimidating someone whether it be physically or by other means, taking pictures of girls in compromising positions and blackmailing them and other ILLEGAL methods that are used to convert people are NOT acceptable and are AGAINST the law the last time i checked. Going to family gatherings and religious festivals and beating up kids, ladies and elders is not only AGAINST the law but is also someone a coward would do, someone who does not have the balls to stand to MAN face to face.

Again you bring up the same point about these ISLAMIC dominated countries being under attack, which is quite funny really because all the points you have made in the attempt to make my argument seem irrelevant have been relating to problems faced by MUSLIMS all over the world. hahahha.....I wonder what religion you are?? Ohh really so what part of my original message is considered "terroristic" or a "threat" please point it out for me, thanks.


What is my reason behind my call for SELF-DEFENSE...................hmmmmmmmmmm....i dont know how about:
--> groomed conversions of Sikh girls
-->attacks on innocent Sikhs at religious festivals
--> paying money to convert Sikh girls
--> presenting distorted views of the Sikh religion to the public
--> causing a Sikh boy to commit suicide
--> wearing Kara (steel bracelet of the Sikh religion) in the attempt to convert Sikh girls
and the list goes on..............

[shalin]

This is a long response...I apologize


Forced conversions going on in the subcontinent has always been an issue. It happens everywhere and to everyone, throughout Punjab (Indo-Pak), Kashmir, West Bengal, and many other states. Missionaries have been there since around the time the British stepped foot on the subcontinent, but most Christians there today were born into families which have been Christian for generations. However, to some, like right-wing Hindu nationalist parties, they believe all faiths which are not 'dharmic' should not exist, so most Christians, Muslims and Zoroastrians are undesirable in their eyes, even Sikhs to a certain extent. This is a sick view, but so is the idea of forcing religion onto others.

As for the crimes that have been committed in the UK, it's f***ing dispicable and disgraceful. Any sort of dealing with mind-altering drugs, lying, and forced conversions are all haram (forbidden) in Islam. Nowhere did I deny that these things happened. I said that it is not as though every Sikh in the UK has had knives put to their throats and forced to take the shahada and become Muslims. This is where I will differ in terms of opinion, because you stated that now was the time to 'take action'. I mean, what can you do? It is as though the media, and even opinions among many Hindus and Sikhs, makes it seem as though this is the entire Muslim community of the UK doing this, and that they must be dealt with in such fashion, as Muslims as a whole. This just pushes stereotypes. I have many Hindu and Sikh friends who will say the same thing you have, but we debate these issues to the bone. I tell them not to make it sound as though it's a call for a revolt, because that is the image that I and many Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims are getting.

If people are worried about their children being in relationships with people who are not of their religion, or being threatened by anyone into doing anything, and if they're thinking that their daughters are in danger, the parents should have whipped them into shape right from the start, not through the hate rhetoric that Desis are known for (raising their kids to hate everyone that is not of their background), but by preventing them from partying, mingling, etc. People in this day and age think it's perfectly fine for their kids to do whatever the hell they want, to go out drinking with their friends, to allow their kids to get into intimate relationships before they're even married, to put themselves into positions where they're vulnerable to things such as this. Everyone just needs more discipline from the beginning, and no tolerance of deviance in their children in terms of following what their parents say.

Let me tell you, I'm from the states, born and raised. It's not as though I can't understand where you're coming from, because I live in a Western nation too. The stories that I heard happening in the UK are things that would shock everyone here, and those who are ignorant will just have more ammunition to project this negative image of Muslims as a whole. I mean, not many Muslims here even know that these things went on in the UK. It has never come up in conversation, probably not more than once. It is not a denial of the events, let me clarify that. Those who do know of it have denounced it as some of the most anti-Islamic things a Muslim can do.

You mentioned how you believe that even one conversion is a big deal because that means the Sikh community is doing something wrong in educating their kids about their religion. This is one of the biggest misconceptions that people have when they hear of someone converting to another religion. The conversions in the subcontinent are a different issue, I will agree, so let me focus more on conversions in the UK and the US.

Every friend I have who is a convert to Islam comes from a Christian, Hindu or Sikh background. The vast majority of these do not even live in a neighborhood where many Muslims live, or attend colleges where they would too much contact with Muslims. Even then, the general concensus I get (and these are all people who chose to convert themselves through their own readings) is that they never felt a part of their own faith, and found Islam to connect them with God more so than their respective faith, or any others they read into.

This is meant in no offense of Hindus or Sikhs, but most can never explain their religion if they tried. This holds for some Muslims I've come across too, which is kind of sad. However, it is not as though the only reason why anyone would convert to another faith is because their parents did not teach their kids their religion properly. One has to feel connected as an individual and as a group to their faith, and if they themselves do not find that and wish to change that, why is it wrong for one to choose another path in life?

There are Muslims I know here in the states who throughout their entire lives have been attending the mosques, taking classes there for Qur'an recitation and memorization, taking Sunday school classes on specific topics in Islam, and some even attending Islamic high schools. With such an upbringing, you would think that at least the vast majority would turn out to be the most religious and the most attached to the core principles of Islam and not be diverging as much as some who have not cared one bit about their faith from the beginning, but this is not true. Anyone can digress from what morals they were raised with, no matter what their background is, but it is not ALWAYS because the parents did not provide them with enough knowledge on their faith.

If you feel it is because the community is not teaching their children properly, then when you reach the age (if you have not already) to raise children, provide them the knowledge they would need to be good religious Sikhs. If you believe that this is what would prevent them from converting to another faith, then by all means, do so. However, don't blame yourself or others if your child or others decide to follow another path. The Christians I know who have converted, the majority came from Catholic families, and the majority attended church every Sunday and also on holidays. They were raised in a typical religious Catholic family. However, people will always be curious and interested in certain things that others will not.

A lot of reactions I get from my Hindu friends who really look down on conversions is "Why would anyone convert away from Hinduism...I mean, it's HINDUISM! When you're born Hindu, that's it. You can't truly convert into the religion, and if someone leaves the religion, who's going to take their place? They've disgraced the religion and their entire family by doing it."

Of course families will at first not be very pleased if their child were to choose another faith, and many will blame themselves, but what it boils all down to is one's own individual choice. People can find interest in things that others won't, and if someone wants to make the choice to change their religion, no matter whether they come from a Hispanic background, a Filipino background, an Indian Hindu background, or whatnot, it is their decision, unless it has been directly or indirectly forced through deception. That is something Islam really looks down on.

If you have the time, take a look at these videos. They are news reports about the mosque which I attend, in the next city over (Union City, NJ - USA), and how close to a thousand (or perhaps more) Hispanic Catholics in my area have converted to Islam.




The videos are both in Spanish, but there is a partial translation off to the side if you click 'more' under the information about the video. If you understand any Spanish, then it will be easier to watch, as you would pick up on the wordage used by the news reporters and those converts which they have interviewed.

Now back to the events in the UK..

As for the 'isolated incidents' comment, I use that because the Western media and all Western authorities turn every issue involving Muslims into a national or global concern, whether or not it is a fabricated tale or not. You will never hear on the news that a Muslim saved the life of such-and-such, but what you will hear is extensive coverage on such things like this, and extensive talk amongst non-Muslim Desis about such topics. Whatever ill action that the media reports on as being committed by Muslims is magnified to a large extent. Police will be involved, of course.

I mean, how many times do you hear that a so-called 'terrorist attack' was 'thwarted' by the police? This is only to enforce the 'need' for non-Muslims, especially the law enforcement, to be wary of Muslims, as though they have been placed on this earth to attack others and bring destruction wherever they go.

As I've said already, forced conversions are forbidden in Islam. Allah (subhaanahu wa ta'ala) himself states that "there is no compulsion in religion", so people can choose to not follow if they do not want to, and you have no right to make them do so. And this is from a chapter in the Qur'an:

"Say, oh disbelievers:
I do not worship what you worship
Nor do you worship whom I worship.
I will not worship what you worship
Neither will you worship whom I worship.
You have your path and I have mine."

If there are Muslims in the UK which have taken part in these "groomed conversions" (I have researched articles online, and find many using that phrasing, and referring to the phrase "radical Muslims" numerous times, as so many news networks do no matter what the story is), then they are obviously going against God's command by doing so. I do not understand though, how one can see such an action, and believe that they need to 'fight back'. I mean, what are you going to do? Commit a massacre? Get the police involved again to investigate Muslims and invade their privacy and allow more profiling, more than the governments have already done? That is my point, pretty much. There are a lot of bad things that go on in this world, but I don't have the right to judge those Muslims who have committed these acts, other than to say right here that these actions are not condoned by Islam. I cannot say that they are not 'good Muslims', because a Muslim is just someone who believes in God, with no partners.

Referring to the person who committed suicide, again, whether or not it was a Muslim, or a group of Muslims who were 'responsible', many will twist this around and make it seem as though all Muslims are responsible, and again, 'something needs to be done'. The fact remains though, that no matter how much anguish someone may be in, no matter how f***ed up someone gets because of other people, their choice in committing suicide was their choice alone. I am not condoning suicide, nor am I condoning whatever involvement other individuals may have had, but the person who killed themselves did not have a gun pointed to their head, otherwise that would be considered murder. Many people know others who are, or have been at one point, suicidal due to what had been occurring around them.

But why did this person not report it? Many fear the consequences of doing so, however, maybe it could have prevented the suicide from happening in the first place. Maybe it could have charged those responsible for the threat, and nothing would have happened. You cannot make it seem though, that this is persecution. You can call it harrassment, and perhaps severe in nature, but don't try to make it seem like there is a nationwide plot in the UK against Sikhs and Hindus.

Also, I am not trying to minimalize the issue here by saying this. Don't think that just because I am not a Sikh, that it means that I do not give a crap. See, I'm not like one of those Desis who, as long as it isn't affecting people of their ethnicity or faith (and even some people don't care if it affects people of their faith, as long as they are not of their ethnic background), they won't care at all. I am pointing to bigger issues because the mentality that many people have when a few things to happen to people in their community is that they must rise up, they must do something. Now you know how Desis work. Hatred is not something that is unfamiliar or uncommon with us. It will only stir up hatred and more disunity in the UK, and perhaps have an effect elsewhere as well. There are already many religious organizations in the UK who are speaking out about such things, but exactly what actions would you take?

Now, when I brought up the lands in which persecution at great levels is taking place, don't assume that it was because they are supposedly Islamic. There is a huge difference between Islamic and being predominantly Muslim. People use the terms interchangeably, but that is ignorance on their part. Neither Palestine, nor Sudan, nor Afghanistan, nor Iraq are governed by Shari'a. If you want me to mention more lands, non-Muslim lands, I'll bring up Tibet, which has a Buddhist majority. I can also bring up parts of western and central China, but most of those who are killed there are Muslims and Buddhists as well, just for following their faith. I can bring up countless African countries in which minority groups are persecuted, even Christians. It's f***ed up, it really is, but there is nothing one can do but to present the information in a way that is not trying to create divisions amongst people. Perhaps I'm coming off in that way, in that I'm on the 'other side' of this issue, but that's not the case. All I'm saying is that there is already enough division between Desis, even in countries outside the subcontinent, and I don't know exactly how it is there in the UK, but in the US, you see the division to such an extent that some Desis of certain backgrounds won't move into neighborhoods if the Desi population there is not of the same ethnicity and religious background as they are.

Also, on all college campuses, the Punjabi Sikhs will stay to themselves, the Pakistani Punjabi Muslims will stick to themselves, the Gujarati Hindus will stick to themselves and sometimes Punjabi Hindus, the South Indian Christians will stick to themselves, and there's a lot of division amongst Muslims of all racial backgrounds as well. You can feel the presence of animosity wherever you go. I mean, look, Muslims are not going to get anywhere no matter how much we try to fight the racial and religious discrimination we get everywhere, even from professors at universities and obviously from state and local law enforcement and airport security. There is no way to fight that, because it is on a global scale in all Western nations, especially throughout Europe and the US, and even in India since it's pretty much part of the West anyway. I'm not saying that if anything like this happened to you, that you should just take this, but these are the actions by individuals, by regular citizens who are being freaking idiots. I've gotten a lot of harrassment myself. If you read the 'Final Solution' topic in this board (World Affairs), you'll see that I'm a Gujarati Muslim. I get a lot of sh*t from non-Muslim Gujaratis, so the best thing to do is to just stay away from those who act in a way that is not respectful, and that's it. You can't fight your everyday citizens, and try to start an uprising by magnifying the issue to such an extent.

I mean, if some people on college campuses feel harrassed from other students, they can report it to the administration. If there are Muslims who are attending predominantly-Sikh festivals for physical confrontations, wake up. This happens everywhere. This has happened at Eid parties in the states, just that it's not reported on the news. Certain people will be a-holes, that's a fact that we all have to live with, and sometimes it gets to the point where someone will go out of their way to 'modify' the lives of others or to f up someone else just because of their background. It's going to happen, and until it gets to such a large scale where it's an all-out assault, like massacres or something, you'll just have to live with it and not insinuate any hate.

As for trying to make your arguments 'irrelevant', no, that was not my aim. I'm just stating that these things happen elsewhere too.

As for the 'terroristic threat' comment, the way this is posed, it can easily be twisted around, and if this was a Muslim forum, I'm sure you'd have some government agencies monitoring it that will use this as a reason to 'prevent a terrorist attack', and then it would be on the news, with a few tweaks of the information, and something will be added about how they were planning to attack the government or something. You get what I'm saying?

You stated: "we must protect our people", and again, I ask, what can you do? This is not asked in a demeaning manner, but as an honest question.

[shalin]

As for your reasons of self-defense..

1. How are you going to defend against so-called "groomed conversions"? The simplest thing to do is not allow the next generation to be so freaking liberal. Do you realize how susceptible Desis have allowed their daughters to be, even Muslim girls? We can't just reinforce the negative view that some Sikhs will hold against Muslims and claim it is 'self-defense'. This is like what Israelis say when they invade Palestinian towns in tanks and bomb houses that are filled with entire families, and the water is shut off for the rest of the town for days. Then you see on the news that the IDF was trying to prevent a 'suicide bombing' so in 'self-defense' it took 'preventive measures' against this from occurring, after receiving 'credible information'. Plus, the West's definition of 'self-defense' is the same as revenge, terrorism, etc. So whatever you're saying, claiming that it's out of self-defense, you know that some who will agree with you, will do so because of their hatred of the backgrounds of those involved with whatever you're speaking out against.

Another thing we need to realize is that we are living in Western countries, and many of us were born and raised here. We are not in power. If this was India, there would probably already be some riots against Muslims in Punjab.

2. Again, these attacks at religious festivals are horrible. However, how many large melas have gone by without fights starting, amongst Sikhs? lol seriously...I hear from my Hindu friends all the time that around Diwali, there are always fights at any convention where they'll hold garba or raas. Yes, it is f'ed up that you will have people of different faiths getting into fights, but what is your method of defense? Some may see it as entering masjids and shooting people, like has happened in Iraq by the invading troops and in Palestine by Jews. There are even cases in American of masjid vandalizations by Christians who just didn't like the fact that a mosque existed there, and they were making 'Muslims pay for 9/11'. It is not as though there are Desi Muslim parents telling their kids to go attack Sikhs and Hindus, so what is your plan?

3. No matter whether you like it or not, I have to refer back to the subcontinent. There are Hindus who have broken into churches and other Christian buildings and asked how many people they have converted, why they converted them, where they get their funding from, and if they provide any of that to missionaries, and if the missionaries are bribing people with food or money (which is a fact in some parts of Africa, and was in India long ago).

4. Distorted views of Sikhism to the public? Man...this happens to Muslims and Hindus too. People will be ignorant, people will say stupid things. You can't do anything about it, but if someone is actually interested to learn what your religion is about, then provide them with an educated response. You can't do anything about those who go out of their way to spread lies about your faith. Look at how much sh*t people talk about Islam at a very large scale. Individuals doing it at a small scale is actually easy to deal with. All you do is educate them one by one calmly. You would be surprised how many times non-Muslims who have always had completely negative views of Islam have spoken to Muslims about whatever crap they hear from the media, or their friends, and then be completely amazed and make a complete 180 degree turn on their view of Islam.

5. Again, you cannot cause a suicide. Think about all of those who have attempted suicide and not succeeded. Many will probably say that they feel like they have nothing to live for, or that nobody gives a f about them, and so on. No matter what the chain of events were that led them to feel like they had to end their life, whether or not someone did anything to cause those feelings, nobody but the individual themselves is the one who takes part in the act of suicide. And again, I am not justifying the actions of those who had tormented the kid, because those who do such things with no regard to the life of a fellow human are pretty much despicable.

6. I don't know if this takes place in the UK or not, but there are people in the US who pretend to be homeless by wearing a kufi (if they are males) or a hijab (if they are females), or just properly learn how to say salam, and approach anyone that 'looks Muslim', in an attempt to get money from them. There were even reports of this happening at mosques, where they actually have the audacity to enter a masjid, telling them that they have nowhere to live, and they are Muslim and really need the help of the entire Muslim community, and the masjid does everything it can to help, providing tons of money and food, and in the end, the person disappears. There was one who almost attacked a female Muslim friend of mine near her home, and she reported the woman to police. They ended up finding drugs and hundreds of dollars worth of cash on her.

People do a lot of screwed up things. Just understand that you can't control everything in this world, and not everything will be perfect. If these things were true, then there would be no reason to believe in God. A balance must be kept in the world. Perhaps horrible things will happen to certain Sikhs in the UK, but elsewhere, some great things may be happening. Those who sin will have to face up to it after they pass on, so live in peace knowing that fact, and try not to mess things up for yourself or others, that way you can hopefully attain Jannah.

[bhatinda]

ok ima make mine short and sweet......the ways in which i think we must take action are: 1. to a better job at educating future generations of Sikhs about their religion 2. explaining to the parents that they are the primary influences in thier children's lives and they should set an example of how to follow their religion 3. improve security at events/religious festivals, ones which will act quickly in the event that there are physical confrontations, drugs, alcohol etc. on the premises of the event 4. stand up to those "individuals" that think it is ok to groom convert Sikh girls or ok to wear Kara with the intent of making people think that they are Sikh......I am pulling for more of an assertive approach to this issue than Shalin is and that is because the foundation of our religion has been built upon the ideology that we must stand up for ourselves and that is a Basic Human Right! We cant always just sit back and say "oh we dont need to do anything because God will punish these evil doers", if that were the case then there would be no need for the police.

[Ghost...]

u lot write alot, ill read it later tonight!

[jatti05]

i wish my cwk was that long!

[raj2000]

hey, i just stumbled onto this site i'm a punjabi from australia, all I can say to the above is spirtuality is a personal journey, and life is about relationships, the biggest one being with god. If you do not spend time praying or seeking god you will never find any answers, and your relgion will just be an identity rather than anything powerful. so many of us today make movies our god, or sport our god or bf/gf our god that we actually don't spend anytime with the real god because we are too busy idolising other things. So we may be proud that I am a punjabi sikh i have a great heritage but do you believe like those punjabis did then do you have faith like those sikhs did then?

Today we live in a world where there are countless religions and countless cultures and we fuse it all together, and take the best bits of it all. We don't actually priortise god or our faith, so these ppl who change faith really represent someone who doesn't believe in their faith at all, or actually convert because they have had a powerful experience. gone are the days where you are told to convert or be killed, and to be frnak if you really believed in god you would not kill to convert anyways, god is the one who gives life and he is the one who takes it.

Spirtuality is different to culture. You can have two differnt things. Call yourself a punjabi sikh however believe in scientology, See to be a christian you need to be baptised, to be muslim there are their requirements and then to be a proper sikh you need to amrit chak, in our sikh relgion, everybody wants the glory to be called a punjabi sikh because of our great heritage and past, but we don;t want to let go of the material world and be practising sikhs, so we haven't really made a name of ourselves today but live froom the accomplishments of the past.

If ppl convert it shows their lack of spirtuality and that they lack faith in their relgion, maybe they don't see it working. But if ppl convert and they have a strong reason behind it, you may want to now why, and you maybe surprised by their answers.

[londonLIONjatt]

May 10, 2007 21:32:30 GMT bhatinda said:

how many more girls are going to be converted

could be any number from the many liberal or cultureless sikh girls you see these days.

[AAG]

May 22, 2007 9:06:57 GMT @jatti05 said:

i wish my cwk was that long!

That comment made my day lol...I'm such a lame o

Anyway, this will make good reading material when i'm bored one night.

[multitonerecords]

people are free to chose their religion..but to do so for reasons that are not punkra (philosophical) is purely retarded...ie...my bf is sikh so im going to be sikh...no....be sikh because u like sikhi, the philosophy and its history......not because ur bf who sports a khanda on his scrawnty arms and smokes ciggs all day claims to be sikh...

/rant

[princess]

this is a very touchy subject.....if indians from other countries came to da U.S, or where i live in cali.....everything is way different....people marry whoever regardless of religion...bt i do understand as being a sikh...that because nowadays more girls are ending up marrying out of our religion...that more "orthodoxed" sikhs are upset....bt den again....NO ONE IS PERFECT....an i want to EMPHASIZE that.....TIMES ARE CHANGING.....either way as generations of our childern's childern....will eventually.....MARRY OUTSIDE DER RELIGION.....its a proven fact(FOR ALL WHO DONT BELIVE ME TAKE A SOCIOLOGY CLASS TO EDUCATE YOURSLEF) and the whole thing about convertING....everyone has a choice....if someone is forcing a girl to convert....den she can always go to her family for support....or da police (If necessary)....i mean ders always two sides of a story....if the girl was da one who got with another guy of another religion....den it is her fault....if she would have thought of the consequences first...and still decided to go wit it...den STILL....it would most likely be her fault.....FOR EXAMPLE MYSELF....I AM FULL BLOODED SIKH....bt i do go out with a pakistani....which is mulsim.....and we both understand that maybe one day we might have to marry different people....bt u never know....

oh ya....for all da girls dat ARE...converting or w.e. in like canada or england...or whereever the f**k.....they need to think and worry bout thier families and their education first!!!!!

BOYS COME AND GO....AND IF U GET CAUGHT...YOU GUYS ARE GONNA BE STUCK TOGETHER YOUR WHOLE LIFE....

[multitonerecords]

omg u live in cali...so do i

i hope your views are liberal on marriage when it comes to differences in age as well...44, male CAli (ASL) http:www.shaadi.com/boyincalifornia

[princess]

YES I LIVE IN CALI

N IM 19......VERY YOUNG....

[multitonerecords]

but legal...

lets not let age get in the way....

[princess]

LOL...OH HAHAH
NOT BEING RUDE OR ANYTHING...BT UR MA DADS AGE...
N YA I NOE...MA BF IS A LOT OLDER THAN ME

[londonLIONjatt]

make gfs with any religion , then afterwards go to india to marry sikh kuri good stuff , thats what a lo of mundeh do here, after they have fun with gfs

[princess]

huh.....lol
well ma bf is not like dat....hes a very quiet conservative guy.....
IM HIS BOSS!

[londonLIONjatt]

ah nice, i don;t let girls boss me about lol

[princess]

hahah maybe dats why u dont have a gf/wife....
u have to make da women happy first to get wat u want....

ITS A EASY CONCEPT.....

[ammo]

Ah screw it
Im gonna move back to Punjab
90% of the people callin themselves Sikhs in the UK and western world clearly aint and id rather be closer to where real Sikhs are....

[princess]

well no ones stopping you....